STR Photographs with Mike Sutton

[00:00:02] Speaker A: This is Short Term Rental Management, the show that is all about short term rental property management with your host, yours truly, Luke Carl. Happy Tuesday to you. Welcome to Short Term Rental Management. Life is good. We're so grateful to have you here with us. And in an effort to get a little bit more local, I noticed that my, my show was getting a little too global, and I wanted to kind of bring it down to the local level a little bit more. And the first person I thought of was my buddy Mike, who takes photos in the Great Smoky Mountain area of Pigeon Forge, Gatlinburg in East Tennessee. And he's a photographer, a real estate photographer, a short term rental photographer, vacation rental photographer, whatever you want to call it, that's what he does. And we know each other quite some time now and can't believe it took me this long to ask you to come on the show. So, Mike, how you doing, buddy? [00:01:00] Speaker B: I'm doing great, Luke. Thanks for having me. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Yes, Mike Sutton is his name. He is for hire on photography, but we're going to get into the nuts and bolts of what it takes to take good photos in the world of overnight rentals. Single family, overnight rental, Airbnb if you will, vrbo, et cetera. First thing I want to do is just tell me a little bit about yourself and any kind of background you have in real estate investing in general. [00:01:24] Speaker B: Okay. So most of my career I was in IT. I was a software architect. Did that for 20 years or so. And as I got out of that, I started some online businesses that started creating some passive income for me. So as I got further away from the cubicle life, I was looking for something that was a little more creative. And photography seemed to be it for me. So started that in 2015. That's, you know, landscape photography, photography for like, the chambers of commerce in Pigeon Forge and Sevierville and Gatlinburg, and then started moving into real estate photography. I don't really do a lot of real estate photography anymore. It's a different sub genre than vacation rental photography. And now I do almost exclusively vacation rentals. So, I mean, that's, that's how I got where I am. It just, it's kind of snowballed and a lot of it is due, you know, to you. I. I think you messaged me one day and you're like, hey, can you take photos of my cabin? And I didn't. I had no clue who you were. And I'm like, sure. And then the next thing you're like, I can tell some people about you. And you know, it's kind of snowballed from there, so. [00:02:54] Speaker A: Oh, well, you're being too kind. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I do appreciate that. I work very hard, but yes, it's changed my life. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, it has nothing, in my opinion, has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with the fact that you work hard and you show up and you do your job. So thank you. How long have you been in the. Physically living in the East Tennessee area? Your whole life or. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Okay. No, I. We moved here in 2014. Now prior to that, we lived in Memphis and most of our lives, with a few, few years of exception in there. And then in 2014, we decided to move here. We had vacationed here for 25 years before we moved here, so we were familiar with the area. And so what happened one day was my wife, we were in Memphis, my wife was at Target, she was pulling out of the parking lot and a guy tried to carjack her and really shook her up. And so that, that night, you know, she's all upset, we're sitting talking, I'm like, you know what I'm doing? I can do anywhere. We don't have to do it here. Why don't we move to our happy place? So we moved to East Tennessee and have, have loved it. [00:04:13] Speaker A: So 10 plus years. [00:04:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. [00:04:16] Speaker A: And the key that, the key to that story. And I don't want to, I don't want to speak negative or throw anything under the bus, but the word Memphis is, I think, the key to that story. Right. It is fairly well known for being a dangerous place. [00:04:29] Speaker B: It is, Yeah. I won't say much. I mean, I, I have some, some great friends there. We have some great memories there. Great food, but. Great food, great culture. Yes, but it's just a different place and it's not where we wanted to raise our kids. [00:04:43] Speaker A: I do very much. I love Memphis. My sister in law and my nieces and nephews and their family live in Memphis. It's not permanent. They're there for work reasons. For her husband, my brother in law. They are moving back to Mississippi before too long. But I do like that they're there because I do a very, very big fan of the King of rock and roll, Mr. Elvis Presley. [00:05:08] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:05:09] Speaker A: And any chance I get, I'd like to go say hi to the King and take my family and take my kids to go say hey to the King. And I think he's just the greatest of all time. And he is the greatest of all time. And Graceland is a huge deal and Memphis has a lot of culture as far as rock and roll and the blues, obviously, but it is dangerous. It is, yeah. So we have a lot of children. I'd like to talk about that a little bit, if you don't mind getting into the personal life just a little bit. I have two wonderful children. They are the entire reason for me being on the planet, in my opinion. I got started a little later in life. I had my son when I was 40. And the children, I mean, it's almost like I didn't. The first 40 years didn't matter, you know, and it's a wonderful thing. So I do. I have absolutely no idea. And I know this is not why you're here, and we're going to get into the nuts and bolts of photography, but what is it like? [00:06:05] Speaker B: Okay, so my wife and I have eight children. They're all ours. They were all one at a time. So no, no twins or any of that. So I've been asked many, many, many times, what's it like? Well, it's like having two, except there's a whole lot more, you know, and, and you're right, it. It completely changes your life. It completely changes your, your focus. The, the first two or three or four were okay. Then when you get to five, it's like we, we've run out of hands, you know, I can't. I can't hold hands with all my kids and help them cross the street. I gotta trust them now. And every one of them is different now. My children are all grown now, so My youngest is 22 and my oldest will be 34 this year. [00:07:04] Speaker A: 10 years, eight children, each of them independently birthed in a 10 year period. [00:07:11] Speaker B: 12? Yeah, 22 to 34. So 12 years. [00:07:15] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So we got it all out of the way, so to speak. [00:07:22] Speaker A: But did it become a system at some point? I mean, like, it's almost like, yeah. [00:07:27] Speaker B: You gotta, you've gotta have systems. Like one of the things that we had to do that was unique for a family of our size is, you know, when they were younger, we didn't have a house that could really accommodate that many people. So it looked more like the Brady Bunch where there were like three beds in one bedroom. And instead of our kids keeping their, their clothes in their own separate closets or having their own separate bathrooms, we actually took a bedroom, created a closet out of it with shelves and hangers, and everybody had their own section. And when we did laundry, you know, we'd go into that room. Everybody would put their stuff where it, where it belonged, and we always knew where the clothes were. So they weren't just, you know, down in the bottom of somebody's closet or under their beds or whatever. So, you know, things like that. Things like having the older kids take a lot more responsibility because it was. It's clearly a lot for two people to, to take care of or honestly, one person, because my wife was doing 99% of it. But, yeah, I mean, you can't prepare for it and you just have to do what you got to do. So. But I loved every minute of it. [00:08:45] Speaker A: Okay, wonderful. Two questions come to mind, which I'm sure there'll be more. What is the vehicle situation with 10 people total? [00:08:54] Speaker B: Great question. So when they were younger, we only have one that's still in the house with us, so vehicles are not an issue. Now, when, when we had child number five, we bought Ford Econoline 15 passenger van. So think church van. And it was just chock full of car seats. And that's how we got around nine miles. Nine miles to the gallon. And, you know, it was. It was kind of freakish, honestly. My wife did get pulled over one time and the policeman told her that she couldn't drive a daycare van without a separate CDL license. And she's like, they're all my kids. And, you know, that was. That was the end of that. So, yeah. So big fan. [00:09:49] Speaker A: Okay. [00:09:49] Speaker B: Glad it's gone. [00:09:51] Speaker A: And my other question is, hopefully it'll be my last on the subject, because I am very curious, but grandkids, where. Where are we going with that? Are we. We got to be getting there if we're not already. [00:10:03] Speaker B: We're not there yet. I kind of expected to be here, be there. [00:10:07] Speaker A: And how old, again, is the oldest? [00:10:08] Speaker B: The oldest is 34. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Again, I didn't have my first until I was almost 40. [00:10:14] Speaker B: So, yeah, I mean, I think. I think life is different now for, for that generation. They. They don't look at things the same way, you know, and they're kind of told by. By the Internet, you know, you don't have to have, you know, what the previous generation considered the American dream of, you know, owning a home, having a career, having a family. You know, everything's kind of turned upside down, but it'll happen pretty quick. [00:10:49] Speaker A: I would assume you're very interested in such a thing. Yeah, yeah, I would be. I definitely would be. Again, I'm going to be an older grandfather, but I, I'm in a hurry. I would like to. I would like, for that to happen someday. [00:11:01] Speaker B: We are. We are looking forward to it, but I'm not going to rush them. Yeah, we're not going to be those kind of parents. [00:11:08] Speaker A: Well, you do have the potential here to have a massive amount of grandchildren. [00:11:13] Speaker B: You know, there is the potential, yes. Did think about that for many years. [00:11:19] Speaker A: Because I'm already doing the math. I got two kids, and then the next thing you know, I could have five, four, five, you know, grandkids with just the two kids. So with you, this guy's. You're going to need a lot of fans. [00:11:29] Speaker B: Absolutely. Could. Could be 20 little ones running around here. [00:11:33] Speaker A: One. Wouldn't that be wonderful? [00:11:35] Speaker B: It'd be. It'd be crazy, that's for sure. [00:11:38] Speaker A: Yes. All right, well, anyway, enough about personal stuff. I do appreciate it. It's fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. Let's talk about Smokies in general. You've been there a little over 10 years now that. What have you noticed is changes in the market. Actually, let me back up. Do you own any rental properties, short term or otherwise? [00:11:57] Speaker B: I do not. [00:11:58] Speaker A: Okay. And no interest in that, and that's totally normal. I understand why you would not be interested. [00:12:05] Speaker B: No interest in it in long term, because it's what I do. It's what, you know, I'm in and out of. Of cabins in the Smokies every day. So it's something that I know about. And like I said, we vacationed here for 25 years before we moved here, so we know the importance of having a clean, comfortable place to stay when you come on vacation. [00:12:37] Speaker A: But what about long term? I mean, let's forget about the Smokies. What about. You could go back to Memphis and buy a turnkey or anything like that. This is somewhat on your radar, just not a priority. [00:12:47] Speaker B: Correct. [00:12:47] Speaker A: Okay. All right. That's a good picture to paint. Picture to take with a camera either way. So what about photography? I will, you know, I'll be honest with you. When I first started again, I've got the two longest running Airbnbs quote unquote, in the Smokies. We've been doing this a while, and obviously it's been done. I've said this a million times. It's been done for century, like a century, literally. But the modern way of doing things. Avery and I were early adopters in that market. We lived there in Tennessee, and again, Avery grew up going there all the time as a child, et cetera. We feel pretty deep rooted in the area and we're madly in love with it and all that to be said, when we first started, there were no photographers. There was one lady out of Knoxville. She was a little bit. She's no longer around, so I'm safe to say she was a little bit grumpy. And there was a guy in Gatlinburg proper that was a real estate photographer. And I do want to clear. Clear up. There is a difference. You already mentioned there's. Didn't want to clear that up. He was into taking photos, and I think, honestly, he was also doing a lot of, like, family portrait stuff. [00:13:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:55] Speaker A: And he would do a rental, and I hired him to do the rental, and it did not go well. I think I never even heard from him again or something like that. So that when I first started, this didn't really exist. Airbnb was new Verbo had been around quite some time. Obviously, it's been around since the 90s, but not a lot of folks were doing it without a property manager. As a matter of fact, when I first started, Airbnb was pushing their own photos. You could, you know, get. They would send a photographer. Now, they didn't have one in the Smokies, which is so ironic, thinking about it today. [00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Because that is the number one Airbnb market worldwide, and they didn't even have a. They didn't even have a photographer in their. What would become probably at the time, but at least would become their biggest market. [00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:40] Speaker A: So very ironic there. So, anyway, long story short, this is a relatively new space, and there has been a lot of competition come out of the woodwork. There's, you know, I could rattle off five or six very competent photographers in the area at this point in time. So how has the market changed in that regard? [00:14:59] Speaker B: Okay, so it has definitely changed. And one of the reasons. So. So when I first started photographing properties which were mainly real estate houses, that was pretty easy to get into. You know, most real estate agents are easily approachable. Most of them have crappy photos on their listing. And so it's easy to go in and say, let me get you some better photos on your. On your next listing. It's easy to build that up. Getting into vacation rental photography is much different because you can't go on the Airbnb app and contact a host and say, let me get you some better pictures than what you've got. I mean, that's against. You'll get, you know, get your account blocked right away. So. And there's no addresses, so you can't look up who the host is. So how do you reach them? Well, in my case, a lot of that was. Was you getting my name out there, and then, you know, other Facebook groups and just trying to get your name out there. So it's gotten easier in that respect. I think the. The barrier to entry, to being a photographer is so low. I mean, there's no licensing, there's no credentials. Anybody with a camera and a website can call themselves a professional photographer, even though they may not have any experience in that. So we've had a lot of competition come in. You know, the cream rises to the top. You're right there. There are four or five or six really good photographers in the area now where there used to be, you know, just a couple. And we're. We're all friends. We have a group chat. We talk to each other almost every day. So while it's competition, it's also community, and. And it's great. But then we'll have people come along that, you know, try to undersell us, that have no experience. I mean, that's true in any place. I mean, you. You can have someone buy a cabin and list it for $85 a night that you could never compete with. You couldn't meet your expenses with that, you know, but there's always someone willing to take pictures cheaper, but they are not going to be better, if that makes sense. [00:17:30] Speaker A: Well, first of all, you've mentioned me twice now, and I do want to. I want to mention something there. The reason that I am able to make that work is because I'm very selective with who I recommend, and it's not very often I recommend anybody. I usually just stay out of it or I'll give people a list of people. That kind of a thing. You're underselling yourself is what I'm saying. And there are others. There's plenty of others. Jason and Tila and Holly, et cetera. These. These folks are all very well qualified. And. But you. You made it easy for me. You know, you. You've delivered a product, and the client was happy with it. So thank you, first of all, for mentioning twice now that I helped. But the truth is, is that the reason I help. There's a lot of people in the sales. Any sales industry, they're just zinging out whoever they can get their, you know, a phone number for whatever. I don't do that. I'm very selective. And if I'll just tell a client straight up, if I don't have anybody that's qualified for the job, I just don't have anybody that I can. That I can Recommend that I feel comfortable with because they're going to come back to me and complain. [00:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:39] Speaker A: You know, I don't want that. So thank you. Thank you. And you're right, I am extremely selective. Or I just don't. I just keep my mouth shut. But at the same time, you made it easy. You're. To me, as an owner, what I'm looking for is communication. How quickly can you get there and how fast are you responding to me on text, et cetera? That's important to me. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:02] Speaker A: And I don't need you to get there right away. And let's talk about that. Things have slowed down. I would assume in Covid, it was almost impossible to get a photographer because things were booming, booming, booming. And has business slowed down a little bit? [00:19:14] Speaker B: Business has definitely slowed down. You're right. During COVID and when interest rates were much lower and cabins were being sold like day. [00:19:25] Speaker A: That's the kicker. Those 3% interest rates, I was. [00:19:30] Speaker B: I was booked for three months on Twilight sessions and about a month on daylight sessions. Now that's like a week and two weeks or two weeks and a week. So it's definitely much different. It's a little nerve wracking to look at your calendar and see that three weeks from now. I really don't have anything on the schedule, but it does tend to fill in. Part of that is I've. I've worked with over a thousand clients, and the way that I do business is really about building a relationship rather than a transaction. So if they need updated photos, you're right. They can text me. I can run out there in a day or two and have them fixed. You know, they've replaced their appliances. They've had to change out their living room furniture because, you know, somebody put a hole in it or whatever, or they put up a mural, you know, so we, we really try to keep their, their photos up to date and accurate and. And that's just, you know, an ongoing relationship. So. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Absolutely, that's what I'm getting at. It's all about word of mouth, customer service and word of mouth. You know, there's plenty of photographers out there now, and a lot of them do a great job. So you just really just got to find the one that works for you. But, you know, to me, word of mouth is everything, at least in this, in this business. So let's talk about the nuts and bolts of taking photos and what, what photos we're looking for. How. How do I even know that these photos are any good? You know, like, what am I looking for sure. [00:21:09] Speaker B: So let's, let's take it from the standpoint of you bought a brand new property. Maybe you are a brand new host in a brand new property. Where do you start on photos? And I know you help them understand this. And you're not really investing in a property as much as you're creating a hospitality business. And there's a thousand things to think of really in that process. If you look at, at the, the whole process, photographs are the last thing that you're going to do because you got to buy the property, you got to fix it up the way you want it, replace some furniture, replace some artwork, whatever. Then the photos are your linchpin between I now got a finished product and I need to create my listing so I can start making some money. Well, if this is your first time, you don't really know where to start. You don't know the photographers, you don't know what you're looking for. So other than, like you said, word of mouth or recommendation from you, every good photographer is going to have their portfolio online somewhere. So research the photographers in that area, look at their portfolios. Everyone has a different style. You mentioned, you know, Jason and Holly and Tila love all those guys. We talk every day, but all four of us have different styles. Holly can do more, you know, dark and moody. Mine are more bright and crisp. Tila does a lot more staging because she used to be a creative director. So everybody has a little bit of a different style. And looking at their portfolio, you're going to figure out which one of these speak to me the best, you know, then you're going to want to look at their, their pricing and their lead times so there's not any surprises. Again, you put, you put a big down payment to buy this property, you put some more money into it to replace furniture and furnishings and maybe appliances and all that. You don't want to get to the end and say, I don't really have enough money to get a good set of photos. Now let me go with this guy. That's, you know, 200 bucks. And now you've put out a subpar set of photos on something that you put a whole lot of money into on the front end. So by looking at their pricing in advance, you know how to budget for that. And the same for lead times. You know, three, four years ago, you might have had to wait a month. Now it's more like a week. But. And how much time is it going to take you to get your photos back after they take the photos because you want to get your listing up, you know, as soon as you can after the property's ready. Especially like this month, you know, we're, we're approaching Memorial Day so everybody wants, you know, to make sure that they get those bookings for, for that big weekend and then going into the summer. So you don't want to wait too long and then have to take just whoever is available because the least experienced person is going to be the one that can get to you as quick as you know you want. So the other thing that I would say is pick someone local. There are some really good high dollar photographers that will travel but because you need that relationship for updates, you know, and different seasons and different times of day and all that bringing someone in for, for a one time shot really doesn't help you. So and then the last thing is consider what other services you need from your photographer. Do you want some video? What kind of staging do they do for you? Do you want some floor plans that you know, show the layout of your, of your property so that they can see where you know, where the bathrooms are in relation to the bedrooms and where are they going to have to put the kids and all that stuff. So there's a lot, a lot that goes into it. But with just a little bit of planning you can be ready when you need the photos. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Are you looking for a change? Well, the short term shop is hiring realtors. If you live in or want to move, move to one of the best vacation markets in the United States. We want you to join the team. We are a small family owned business but we are one of the biggest real estate teams in the world. We are looking for new team members. Please contact us at theshortermshop.com careers theshortermshop.com Careers 100 agree with the out of town thing. That's not even something that's crossed my mind. I would say probably in the early, you know, back when it was hard to find a photographer I was, it did get on my radar once or twice to haul somebody in. But today with the, where you know, the advancements of technology and just, you know, this whole world we're living in, no way I would get somebody in from out of state that does exist and they are expensive, they're getting on an airplane and they probably do have a really beautiful portfolio and probably working with some heavy hitter influencers and that kind of a thing. And it's, I could see where that would be very tempting and I could also see where it would work Yeah. [00:26:57] Speaker B: I have a client that hired an influencer photographer, flew them in. It wasn't in this market. It was out west. Flew. Flew them in. I believe she told me it was close to $5,000. [00:27:12] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. [00:27:13] Speaker B: Fly them in. They. They did the photos. They were great looking photos. They did a video. They put it on, you know, their YouTube and Instagram. The guy has well over a couple of million, you know, subscribers. So there was. There was exposure there. But she told me the whole experience wasn't that great. You know, it was very expensive. They left the. The property kind of trashed and, you know. [00:27:44] Speaker A: Now are you saying they were sleeping in the property? [00:27:47] Speaker B: Yes, they. [00:27:48] Speaker A: I see. [00:27:48] Speaker B: They flew in. They stayed in the property over the course of, I think three days. Did. Did the photos and the videos. [00:27:57] Speaker A: Partied in the whole thing. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And so, you know, I've worked with her now on multiple properties here, and she's told me she's not, you know, she wouldn't do that again. It just wasn't a good experience. It was. The exposure was there, but was there an ROI on that? No, not really. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I can't imagine doing something again. Can it work? Sure. If you're new and you're just dipping your toe into this whole thing. 1000 bucks. I mean, maybe 1200 bucks. I do think you need to get the larger package. This is just me personally. Get the 3D print then. There's a million companies out there that do 3D online, and a lot of them are really good now too. But if your photographer does it, that's one of those things. There's not that expensive just to get a 3D for floor plan. So again, this is just my opinion. Go ahead and get the full package from whatever photographer you hire. I think $1,200 range is probably the max that I'm looking to spend right now at this point in the market. And we're in mid-2025, I think that's a very, very fair price. If that includes drone and maybe a little short video. I don't need Matterport. I think Matterport's, if that's me personally, I don't. I don't need it at this point. So I'm looking for the full photo package, hopefully with some twilight or some artificial twilight. I really honestly don't. Don't care either way there. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Sure. [00:29:16] Speaker A: I do want the 3D4 floor plan and I want video and I want a drone. And I think. I think. Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, I may be the first guy you ever did video for. Is that true? [00:29:26] Speaker B: Yes. I was not a fan of doing video when. When you asked and I think the first couple of times you asked, I said no. And then you like, no, you really need to do video. So you pushed. I figured it out and yeah, I do. I do video every week now. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Okay. So hold on. Of course, looking back on it, the probability of that not working out well for me was very high. [00:29:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:52] Speaker A: But I'm pretty sure and I'm not here, we're not here to plug Mike. We're just talking photography in general. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm still using those videos. So they were good enough for me to not ever have to think about it again, which is my goal. I don't want to have to think about it again, you know, so let's segue that a little bit into again, let's recap that 1000, maybe 1200, I would say 1500 is the, like pushing it a little bit for me. And that's with like a video showing the, you know, that I can put on a YouTube and put the YouTube link in my guidebook so people can see exactly what they got themselves into. Now keep in mind, video is not all that helpful, especially with Airbnb. Airbnb, you're not allowed to do any sort of video. You can put a video on. On YouTube they have a video section. I mean, I'm sorry on Verbo, which, which is great. I think that there's. There should be video. I think it's very helpful. So VRBO wins in that category, actually. So anyway, I want to. The full shebang photos. I'm talking, you know, 50 photos somewhere in that neighborhood of polished, ready to go pictures. Whether I use that many or not, that's how many I want that the photographer thinks are good enough to use 50ish. And I want some Twilight. Whether it's real or fake, I don't care personally. And I need Drone and I need a video and it needs to be somewhere between 1,000 and $1,500. That's what I'm looking for. Is that fair? [00:31:09] Speaker B: That is fair. For a standard two, three, four bedroom property, which, you know, most of them are. If you've got a 12 bedroom, 12 bath pool, cabin, you know, with three decks and amazing views, you're probably going to end up spending quite a bit more than that if you want everything because you're going to end up with over 100 photos. You're going to end up with a, you know, three minute video and Yada, yada. So the size of the property does make a huge difference. But. But I think what you're saying is, is. Is correct. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm not interested in this 5,000 deal. I just think it's too much. I think you're being taken advantage of there and it. But again, at the same time, I, I have fairly similar. I have some extremely high dollar tattoos. So you get what you pay for to a certain extent. I, I mean, I'm talking. I have some tattoos that would make you shiver if I told you how much they cost. But so maybe if you're looking at it in that regard, then the 5,000 makes a little more sense, I suppose. But for me personally, I'm like, I'm stuck with this tattoo forever. I'm going to redo my photo. My photos, you know, every little while. Not, not, you know, once a year, every two years, I'm going to get a little touch up here and there. Hold on. I want to segue into that real quick. To me, if I'm swapping out a couch or something, I don't really care. That's just me. Like, do you see people getting super anal about new photos for every tiny little thing? Or do. Do most people not care? [00:32:36] Speaker B: Yeah, there are some. But even so far as rearranging the furniture in the living room, they want me to stop by and get updated photos. There are others that just kind of compile their updates over time, and every couple of years they'll say, you know what? We added something in the game room. We did this and changed out the bedding and these two bedrooms. Can you go get it updated? I would say most people should really consider about every two years, what, what have I changed? Because you, you want your photos to be accurate. You know, if they're not accurate, then when people come in there, there's a chance for them to be disappointed. Yeah. Especially if it's something like you showed bunk beds in this bedroom, but then you replaced it with a king bed because you thought that that would be better. Well, if some mom makes the decision, hey, these bunk beds will be perfect for us. And then they show up and it's not bunk beds, it's a king bed. Now they're disappointed because they were expecting one thing and got another. Yes. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Let me clarify. Excellent point, Mike. Let me clarify. I. If I add a, if I put a new couch in a living room, I'm okay with not getting a new photo of that living room because I've now provided a better product than what was there to begin with. [00:34:06] Speaker B: Correct. [00:34:08] Speaker A: It must be an under promise, over deliver situation. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:12] Speaker A: If you are under delivering in any way, then you do need to redo those photos. So just to clarify now you agree with me there? [00:34:18] Speaker B: I do. And if I can make this point because I have seen it multiple, multiple times, a new host has this property. They see all these Instagram type photos and they completely overstage their property. And they've got, you know, the big fluffy throw blankets and throw pillows everywhere and they've got fresh flowers and, and all that. And then as soon as you promise. [00:34:47] Speaker A: You'Re over promising and as soon as. [00:34:49] Speaker B: You take the photos, they take it all out and they're delivering a granny cabin where someone in there in their mind thought, you know, I've got this amazing spa like place that I'm going to. And then they show up and it's just, you know, standard 15 year old furniture, you know, and all the only thing on the coffee table is the remote control. So you have to be really careful with overstaging. In fact, I think decluttering is actually better than overstage or too much staging. [00:35:23] Speaker A: This is why we get along. I agree. There's a lot of folks out there that disagree and, and they're like, you know, this, this over amenitizing this mega house stuff that. Dude, that's not me. When I buy a house. I just bought a house like last week. I just got it rented last week down here on the beach. I just went in and wiped everything out. I don't want a bunch of junk on the walls and fake plants collecting dust. I want it to be a nice clean canvas for these people. It's just clean. I want it to be clean. And again, you're not wrong. You're not wrong by going out and getting a bunch of high dollar, you know, artwork for the walls or a bunch of stuff to fill it up. I'm not that kind of brain. My brain works like a landlord. I just need to get this thing rented and I will. I want to hit this home again. I said, I mentioned this on almost every single show. The guest is number one. The whole thing we're doing here, this is just a little side note. Our mission, the mission is to provide an awesome home for these people to make memories with their families and that's it. Right? So again, back to the over promising, under underd, delivering. They're going to create these, these memories before they even happen, before they get there. [00:36:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:34] Speaker A: And they're. If they're anything like me, I do this with My, I want everything to be so perfect for my kids. Yeah, I'm doing a Disney trip right now. We got 40 days today. For 40 days from today. I have a count countdown calendar on the mantle. And, and Mike, we go to Disney all the time, but it's still. Because we live in Florida. But I still, you know, it's a huge deal for me. And I, and I called yesterday to get the fishing trip. My brother's coming on this trip and they have fishing at Disney. So I wanted to book the boat to go fishing and they didn't have the time that I wanted and I was so heartbroken. So, you know, that's, that's kind of Disney's thing though. They're like, oh, we're too, we're, we're too in demand. We don't have time for you, you know, so. Yeah, my, my point is, is lost a little bit there. But whatever they're seeing on the photos, it needs to be that or better. [00:37:21] Speaker B: Exactly, yes. [00:37:23] Speaker A: So what does it, what can an owner do to prepare for a photographer coming in? [00:37:28] Speaker B: Okay, so we already talked about planning ahead. So know what you need to budget for the photos. Know what you need for time. You know, how, how, how? Because you know this in the Smokies, when you think you are getting your furniture may not be when you actually get your furniture or when, when you think your contractor is going to be done with your deck is not when the contractor is actually going to be done with the deck. So you kind of need to know, you know, I need to give my photographer two weeks notice if I want to get, you know, twilight session and all of that. So, so do your, do your planning there. Like I said, definitely declutter, definitely do not overstage. I think you need to give it some thought and communicate from a high level your expectations to whatever photographer you're going to use. And what I mean by that is what are the most important things that I want to stress? Is this a pool cabin? Do I have this over the top game room that I really want to appeal to families or whatever? I mean, your photographer is going to photograph every space, but let them know what is the most important two or three aspects. I have had people send me 14 page checklists of different angles that they wanted. That's not the way to do it. That's not what I'm talking about. I just mean set your expectations on what you would like to see as the primary focus of those photos. But then from there you need to trust your photographer. This may be your first or second or third or eighth property. But your photographer, like, I photographed 4,000 different properties. I've seen everything. So telling me that you want this specific angle. Yeah, I'm going to do that for you. But that may not be the best angle. I'm going to get the, you know what I think is the best angle also. So trust your photographer if you're hiring an experienced one. But do you have that communication? And then the other thing I would say, and this is, this is huge. It would have saved so many people a lot of time. If, if your cleaners are the last ones that were in the property before your photographer shows up, have them send you some pictures because you don't want to pay that $1,200 for some photos to figure out that they put the wrong bedding on or they didn't put the pillow shams on or, you know, there's a thousand things that can go wrong that you don't want to show up in the photos. So if they send you some, some pictures, you know, before they leave, then, you know, and, and I don't know, when I walk in, I don't know that you didn't want that pillow sham. [00:40:35] Speaker A: You know, I got a perfect example. Perfect example. One of my beach houses. Beautiful home, Four bedroom. It's really a three bedroom, but it's, you know, whatever. Anyway, the photographs happened with the older set of comforters. [00:40:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:53] Speaker A: I had already replaced, but I think that they were maybe at the laundry or something and the cleaner just didn't cross their mind. And I'm busy. I don't really even give a crap, you know, to be honest with you. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:03] Speaker A: And so now I ended up, I was stuck with this set of photos with these like neon yellow school bus, yellow comforters. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:13] Speaker A: And I'll be honest with you, the worst thing that happened was that Avery, the queen of all real estate and short vacation rentals, the president really of vacation rentals, is the co owner of that house. [00:41:25] Speaker B: Yep. [00:41:26] Speaker A: And I never heard the end of those damn yellow comforters. Now the book, the house still booked. It was really no problem there. But I will say that every time I went back to look at those damn pictures, I was like, oh, this yellow is brutal. [00:41:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:39] Speaker A: Actually, you know what it was? I think they were reversible. And the prettier side, it was upside down is what it was. [00:41:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:48] Speaker A: And how's the cleaner gonna know unless I tell them? They don't know. They don't care. You know, I mean, and I don't care either. Really? But. [00:41:54] Speaker B: And the same for the photographer. I, I did one. I remember specifically there were two bedrooms and the, the, the pillow shams were mismatched. So the ones that went with this, this comforter were on the other bed and the ones that went with that bed around this one. And the client was extremely upset. [00:42:15] Speaker A: Well, how do you not, how do you, how do you not know that some fancy designer told them to do that because it was modern. There's actually a name for that. Matchy. Matchy is what they call that in the ladies world. I know this because I like to buy my wife a lot of purses and they call it Matchy Matchy. So maybe that there may be their fancy $20,000 interior designer didn't want the Matchy Matchy. So how are you supposed to know? [00:42:37] Speaker B: Exactly. So, but all of, all of that can be alleviated or mitigated if you just have your, your cleaner sent you some pictures before they leave and before I show up and then, then you know, and just shoot me a text, hey, swap the, swap the pillow shams. I'll swap the pillow shams. And everybody would be happy, you know. [00:43:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to talk about seasonal photos and do I need Christmas photos? Do I need. I'm going to give you a speech before I get your opinion on this. [00:43:09] Speaker B: Okay. [00:43:10] Speaker A: Fall color photos in the Smokies. The October, early November is like the most gorgeous thing you've ever seen on the planet. [00:43:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:18] Speaker A: And those photos are moneymakers. And it's nice to put those in service, say, you know, August and then get your Christmas photos ready with the Christmas tree, et cetera. Springtime photos with the leaves in bloom and stuff like that. Anyway, I guess leaves don't bloom. Flowers and bloom, whatever. You get my point. [00:43:38] Speaker B: I get you. [00:43:39] Speaker A: Anyway, here's where I'm at with that. And I'm still kind of this way to today. There was a period of time where people were getting into that big time. And my problem as a guy that's been doing this forever is that I know that by the next year when those photos come back around and are relevant again, somebody will have broken the stove and somebody will have ripped holes in the couch and things are going to look a little different. So it's almost like, you know, my point is if you're going to do Christmas photos, they need to be done while the Christmas stuff is up, but they need to be on your listing in like August. [00:44:17] Speaker B: Correct. [00:44:17] Speaker A: So the Christmas stuff is not up in August. So you're having to use last year's Christmas photos. And the problem is, is that you're like always chasing this. This thing, you know? [00:44:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:27] Speaker A: So we do it. We're very minimal on it. I will only put maybe three or four seasonal photos and I try to. Try to, try to capture again and they'll be on the beach. You don't even need to bother with the Christmas stuff. It doesn't really. Nobody really cares. [00:44:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:41] Speaker A: With. With, with a lot of exceptions in my beach houses, there's a pretty good chance I'm not even going to get Christmas booked. I would like to, but it might not. So anyway, that's where I'm at with it. I feel like I'm constantly chasing, you know, like next year's holiday. So I just don't bother to. To a huge extent. But what are your thoughts there? [00:45:01] Speaker B: I do think it's important from, from a macro perspective to have a good set of photos from different seasons, different times of the day. Like I said, different photographers. Definitely have a few Christmas photos. You don't have to show the whole, the whole place. But if you decorate the living room and you put the same tree up every year and you do the mantle pretty much the same way every year, get a couple of photos and like you said, throw them up there in August or September when people are starting to think about that. But, but you're right. I mean, generally when I do Christmas photos, I'm doing it after Christmas because Christmas is busy. So I go in first couple weeks of. Of January, I take some Christmas photos now they've got, you know, they've paid for them, I've taken them, but they gotta wait eight months to. To use them. And the same for the fall photos. You don't want to put fall photos up as the leaves are waning. You know, you take those fall photos and I really for fall, unless you have a huge wall of windows that just looks out on an amazing forest. I'm just taking exterior photos, you know, some drone photos that show the surrounding area. And you also have to consider. Do you even have trees that, that change color like in the Osprey way community? [00:46:29] Speaker A: Yeah, too close to. Too close to town, really. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there aren't a lot of trees there that, that change. [00:46:34] Speaker A: You're like right in Pigeon Forge basically in that area. I own one in there. I actually own the first one that was built in there on this, on the new development. But man, I sound like I'm one up and everything with the designer handbags today, but. Yeah, yeah, no, you're exactly right. Because that's that, that area in particular, you know, it's so close to town, you're just not going to have a lot of trees. [00:46:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So to more generally answer your question, if, if you are going to do multiple seasons, stay a season ahead. So late summer, you know, I'm talking, you know, the end of July, middle of August, start putting those fall photos out there. September, start putting the Christmas. Because you're, you're trying to attract the people that are booking, you know, three, two, three months in advance and you want to show them what, you know, what they're looking for in their mind. [00:47:29] Speaker A: So, yes, it's not, it's Home Depot is what I say, you know. I'm sorry, what's the other one? Hobby Lobby. Yeah, you know, I'm pretty sure we're recording this in April. [00:47:38] Speaker B: Hobby Lobby is much worse. They, they put their Christmas stuff out in May, so. [00:47:42] Speaker A: Yes, yes, I'm pretty sure that there are some pumpkins going up at Hobby Lobby right now. And we're in springtime, so. [00:47:48] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:47:48] Speaker A: I'm not sure where this is going to get released, but you get the idea, you know, you don't need to be that extreme. But I mean, more so that. Let me put it this way, most hosts, again, cream of the crop hosts. There's not that many of them, you know. [00:48:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:03] Speaker A: So if you're listening to this show, you're the cream of the crop, period. Because you're taking the time out of your day to listen to a one hour podcast about photos. I mean, come on, you're really good at this, right? [00:48:12] Speaker B: So boring subject it is. [00:48:15] Speaker A: I mean, the whole thing is boring, really. We're not talking about like dirt bikes here or anything, you know, so anyway, so if you are leaning more towards, you know, getting around to Christmas because it's not booked yet, that's not good. It's better to go the, the off Hobby Lobby way and do the Christmas way early than it is to wait till the last minute and say, whoops, you know, so whatever Hobby Lobby is doing, get, get a little bit, a little bit behind them, but not too far behind them. What, what, what do you expect for a number of photos? Again, I'm going to talk first. I think on a 2, 3, 4 bedroom, you don't need any more than 40 pictures is even pushing it, I think. And I think if you get to the point where you feel like you're scrolling through the same crap over and over, you just unnecessary. That's me. That's me personally. Yeah, I Like breathing room. Let's not overwhelm people. They're clicking through while they're watching their TV shows at night. They're gon book their vacation. They're going to move on. I think that's your biggest avatar. I think. Long story short, I think the. I see a bigger mistake of way too many photos than I do. Not enough. What are your thoughts on that? [00:49:24] Speaker B: Yeah, so there's a balance here. For one, Airbnb requires you to show at least one picture of every space, so you can't just skip entire places. And you. And if you don't give a full picture, you know, then you're not setting the expectations correctly. On the other hand, if you bore your potential guests by making them scroll through 85 photos, chances are they're just going to duck out and go to another listing anyway. So it's finding that that balance where you're showing them what the properties like, you're helping them imagining help. Helping them to imagine their family or their group in that property. You know, are there going to be enough beds? Is it going to be comfortable? Where are we going to sleep? Where are they going to sleep? Do we have enough to do if it's raining outside? That kind of thing. So, yeah, not too many, not too little. And it's really going to depend on you to figure that out. [00:50:27] Speaker A: You know, I agree 100%. [00:50:29] Speaker B: Part of that is not showing the picture of the rooster or the picture of water running in your sink. Things that really don't matter to water. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Running in the water running in the sink is fantastic. Hey, look, we've got running water. [00:50:44] Speaker B: Exactly. We are so much better than all of our competition. We have running water, we have a rooster from Hobby Lobby and, you know, book with us. [00:50:54] Speaker A: So book with us. Yeah, hilarious. So, anyway, you make an excellent point. Let's talk about the families creating a picturing themselves in the space. Which brings me to the lifestyle photos. In other words, humans in the photos. I'm a hard out on that. I don't like it. I think it's kind of creepy. To my knowledge, it is against Airbnb terms and conditions. I'm not sure about that. I don't. I don't get into legal stuff at all. Not that that's legal, but I don't get into that. Pretty sure it's against the rules, but we do see that a lot. Where there's like, people in the hot tub or people playing pool or sitting around the fire pit. And me personally, I'm out. To me, that looks like I'm renting a used house and all those people are touching all the stuff that I'm about to go touch. And I'm, I'm a real germaphobe kind of guy. Especially in a rental, because, you know, I mean, it's a rental. There's obviously there was somebody in here just a few hours ago. Do people ever ask you to do that? Do you do that? [00:51:49] Speaker B: They do ask. And I don't do it for, for the same reasons you're talking about. I, I don't, it's especially for listing photos. I don't think you should put other people in you. When, if you go into a hotel room, you know that people are staying in that hotel room night after night after night. But you don't want to see a picture on the Hilton website that shows someone putting their makeup on in the bathroom. You know, you don't want to think about that. You don't want to think about other people being in the hot tub or other people, you know, playing in the pool or whatever. So listing photos should just be the space. I mean, you're selling the experience, but it should be the space without people. Now, if you look at the major hospitality brands which have been doing this for, for decades, they've been using photos to sell their properties, you know, since the Internet was invented. If you, if you go and you look at a Hilton property, it's going to show just, just the spaces of the rooms. But if you go look at their, their social media, they'll have hospital or they'll have lifestyle type photos. And I think that we can learn from that. If you want to do lifestyle photos, use them on your social media, but don't use them on your listing. [00:53:11] Speaker A: Yes. To touch on that, you're not Hilton. You probably don't need social media. That's my opinion. Although a lot of people do it. Same thing with the lifestyle photos. If you've got pictures in your hot tub on your listing and you're killing it and Airbnb doesn't have a problem with it, bravo. You're doing a great job. It's all about, just whatever it takes to get these folks in your house to create memories with their family. So there's no wrong answer for any of this stuff. [00:53:33] Speaker B: So let me say this. I consider myself just, just based on my experience. I've done, you know, 4,000 properties, well over 100,000 photos that I've delivered of vacation rentals. I consider myself an expert in the architectural photography genre. I would never, ever agree to take Wedding photos, that's not my thing. I wouldn't show up to a football game on Friday night and expect to get good action shots like someone that does, you know, action sports shots every, every week. So make sure that you hire someone that's got experience. Don't hire your, your cousin who is a wedding photographer and expect her to get good photos of your Airbnb because it's a completely different genre. If you are going to go the social media route, consider hiring someone that does lifestyle photos to come in with some models and do all that, but use it only for the social media side and not for the listening side. And I've recommended that to some people and it's worked out great. I just don't do the lifestyle photos. [00:54:53] Speaker A: I agree. A couple more questions. How long should I expect a photographer to spend in my house? [00:55:00] Speaker B: Well, again, it depends on, on how big it is. I've spent up to six hours in one property. I believe it was like a six bedroom pool cabin with, you know, the whole thing, the, the twilight photos, the daylight photos, the interiors, video, floor plans, everything. Typically it's about two hours, maybe three hours. So don't, you know, I've touched on planning ahead. Don't think that you're going to have a photographer come in on a turnover day and get a good set of photos. You know, you have someone check out at 10 o' clock, then you got to wait for your cleaners and then, you know, you've only given your, your photographer an hour and a half before the next guests arrive. Photos are way too important to just make it an afterthought. [00:55:56] Speaker A: Yes. And here's the thing. If you're looking at your calendar and you see a, a turn, you're like, oh, okay, cool, I've got five hours. But you don't have five hours. You don't even know when your cleaner's going to show up. She might be two other houses before she gets to yours and then you're screwing everybody. So I agree. You got to block a day off. [00:56:13] Speaker B: Yep. [00:56:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. What kind of camera do you like to use? It would be multiple, I would assume, but I'm most slightly interested in the camera world myself. So what are we using? [00:56:22] Speaker B: Yeah, so I have a variety of cameras, but my work camera is a Sony. I chose the Sony because I think it does better in low light. And when I'm photographing cabins that have wood floors, wood walls, wood ceilings, you know, light is a problem. So that's one of the things that we have to overcome. And I feel like I can do that best with Sony. [00:56:53] Speaker A: Sony, what is the model is just at the top of the high end. Mirrorless, whatever. [00:56:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a Sony mirrorless. I've got the A7R4. There's some newer ones since then. I think I bought that maybe three years ago. [00:57:07] Speaker A: They come out like every year, right? [00:57:09] Speaker B: Yeah, they do. Yeah. [00:57:11] Speaker A: It's kind of annoying. [00:57:11] Speaker B: It's pretty much like a. Like a cell phone, except a whole lot more expensive. [00:57:16] Speaker A: Yeah. How much is a good camera? Just one camera? [00:57:20] Speaker B: Well, you know, there's more. More to it than just the camera. You have to have the camera, you have to have the lens, you have to have the tripod you have. You know, all that. I would say my total setup right now list when I bought it was about 10 grand. Okay, so you could go much higher than that. [00:57:38] Speaker A: Yes, you could. [00:57:38] Speaker B: You can buy. You can buy, you know, a $30,000 video camera. You know, brand is called red. Whatever. I don't need that for what I do, but. And I don't think you really need it for architectural photography. [00:57:52] Speaker A: I'm a Leica guy. I'm a. Like, I have a Leica Q2. Yeah, they have a Q3 now. But you would never ever take real estate photography photos with that camera. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:01] Speaker A: Not that I have any idea what I'm doing. [00:58:04] Speaker B: I have no idea, but that's what I'm saying. Within photography, there's so many sub genres and there's different cameras that work for different things. So, you know, you wouldn't. You probably. Well, some people might use a Sony for action shots, but, you know, your lens setup and everything would be completely different. [00:58:24] Speaker A: So this is a very long conversation to learn how to get into the art of taking photos. Just the f. The F. Stop alone is enough to make me get dizzy. I can't even comprehend what all that. All that takes, you know? [00:58:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:37] Speaker A: But anyway. All right, Mike, how do we find you? [00:58:40] Speaker B: Okay, you can go to my website, mike suttonjr.com and it'll have my portfolio, my pricing, my online calendar. It's got an FAQ if you have any questions about, you know, what you need to do to get ready for photos or how long it's going to take to get the photos back. So. [00:58:58] Speaker A: Yes. And the guy's got eight mouths to feed. So let's. Anyway. Hey, man, I appreciate it your time. Great conversation, really enjoyed it. And as always, on behalf of short term rental management, don't overthink it. [00:59:13] Speaker B: Definitely. Thanks, Luke, for having me on. [00:59:15] Speaker A: My pleasure.